Tuesday, May 7, 2013

Twelve Tribes

I do have a question for you about Revelation 7:4,5,6,7,8 as compared to Romans 11:16
I agree that this is speaking of Spiritual Israel which is made up of all different tribes and tongues of the physical.
However it seems to me that the 144,000 are taken "from or out of Spiritual Israel".
Do you mean from the twelve tribes mentioned at Rev.7:4?
Yes...I believe that those 144000 are "sealed" (chosen) from the 12 tribes of spiritual Jews...those who were taken into the New Covenant, (chosen to be heirs).
I believe that not all who are chosen to reign in the kingdom, make it 
(Matt.22:8,14; Luke17:34-37; 1Cor.9:24).

I do not see God's favor to the physical Jews as extending past the first century. 
My scriptural reasons are as follows:

After the first century,
the anointed are derived from the larger flock of physical Gentiles (Acts 13:46; Rev.5:9,10)....
The "little flock" were anointed physical descendants of Abraham (physical Jews).
Since the first century, the anointed have been chosen from among physical Gentiles ("every tribe and tongue and people and nation") to become spiritual Jews, along with the original physical Jews who also became spiritual Jews, (under a NEW Covenant) (Heb.8:7)
so that both physical Jew and physical Gentile,
all become "one flock" of anointed spiritual "Jews". (Rom.2:28,29)

The last of the anointed priests and kings (the great crowd "capstone" Zech.4:7,9),
MUST be all physical Gentiles. There is no longer any record of physical Jews,
nor any preferential consideration toward them, since the time of their rejection of God's Son;
and since the opening of the kingdom hope toward Gentiles (Acts13:46; 10:15; Eph.2:14,15,16; Acts10:34,35,44,45; Gal.3:28).
These anointed (since the first century) are all physical Gentiles, being from "every tribe and tongue and people and nation".
The "other sheep" are physical Gentiles, taken into the "one flock" of anointed spiritual Jews (a new Nation of God --1Pet.2:9,10).
The doctrine that "other sheep" are not of the heavenly calling, to me, is error with an evil purpose....
to take away the distinction between what God has cleansed (circumcision of the chosen Priest's heart by spirit) and the common spiritual Gentile.
This deceptive doctrine is the basis for allowing the disgusting thing to enter the holy place (the Man of Lawlessness to raise himself up above the sons of God). (Mark13:14; 2Thess.2:4; 1Cor.3:16)

About the understanding of Rom.11:16;
I know many people think that God's favoritism continues to fleshly Jews, and that they, despite their rejection and slaughter of God's son (Matt.21:38) will still inherit what was promised to Abraham's "seed". But scripture tells us that this promise to Abraham was fulfilled, when Jesus received the inheritance of that promise. He was that promised seed (Gal.3:16; Psalm2:8; Heb.1:2) and the promises were fulfilled in him
God had no further obligation.
Because Jesus Christ shared that inheritance with his "brothers" (Rev.2:26; Luke22:29), and the resurrected Lamb of God bestows it upon his "sons" (Psalm45:16);
 additional "seed" share in those blessings (Gal.3:29; Rom.4:13; 8:17; 9:8), according to God's choosing (Rom.9:15,16; John15:16; 1Cor.12:18) and through their cleansing through Christ's blood (1John1:7; 1Cor.6:11; 5:7; Rev.14:1) and the "Word" of God (Eph.5:25,26,27).
I can best respond to your question about Rom.11:16, by including the context of that verse.
It is hard to do this, because in all these verses there is so much information. I guess the clearest thing to do would be to respond to what I think your question is, and put my observations and understanding (in orange) within the verses.

11 "I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not!"
(God does not desire any to "fall". They "stumble" due to their own defect, but this is not God's will)
But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles (I see this as a hope that jealousy will provoke "some" to humble themselves, out of the realization that they no longer have favor with God due to their flesh and circumcision.). 
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 
(I see this as saying that the failure of the Jews opens a door to the Gentiles ("riches for the world/Nations"). If the Gentiles receive these riches through the Jew's failure, how much more will the world receive blessings through those who are physical descendants of Abraham, and who have accepted Christ!) (I see this group as the "little flock" of Chosen physical Jews.)

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. (meaning...those who respond and repent) 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
(By God's loyalty to his righteous standard, and subsequent rejection of the unrepentant physical Jew, He has furthered a righteous arrangement, which will reconcile/restore the world to God; 
then the Jew's rejection means their being lopped off for death...and their repentance/acceptance of messiah, will mean a rescue from death.)

16 For if the firstfruit is holy (1Cor.15:20,23; Col.1:18), the lump is also holy (1Cor.5:7); and if the root is holy (Rev.22:16), so are the branches (John15:5). 17 And if some of the branches were broken off (physical Jews), and you, being a wild olive tree (physical Gentiles), were grafted in among them (Eph.2:11,12,13,16,18,19,21,22), and with them became a partaker of the root (Rev.22:16) and fatness (oil/spirit) of the olive tree (Zech.4:11,14; Rev.11:4,3), 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” (Physical Jews removed from their unity/covenant  with God, which resulted in access for the physical Gentiles.) 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, IF  they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again (as repentant individuals, not as a nation --Matt.16:27; 2Cor.5:10; Job34:11; Rom.2:5; 14:12). 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Grafted back in, should they accept Christ in the first Century. After the destruction of Jerusalem...the loss of genealogical records, and loss of all God's favoritism; they are just another "Tribe" among the "Nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues".)

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part (not all Jews rejected Christ) has happened to Israel (fleshly) until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (to compensate for the lacking of Jewish priests). 26 And so all Israel (all spiritual Jews) will be saved (including those physical Gentiles who are also "called", by means of Christ's blood, which removes the wall/distinction according to the flesh --Eph.2:11,13,16), 
as it is written:
(I also see a secondary spiritual fulfillment of these words. Spiritual Israel experiences a blindness in part, according to 1Cor.13:9,10;  John9:5; Isa.63:18; Luke21:24; 2Pet.1:19. This occurs until the "fullness of the Gentiles has come in", or, until the full number is reached (144,000), through the kingdom door being open to physical Gentiles. In the time of the end; "Jacob" is found sullied by "ungodliness", due to the Great Tribulation. Only the remnant are washed clean by the Great Laundryman/Refiner.)

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake (the gospel is that Gentiles (all Nations --Acts10:34,35) are acceptable and are replacing the Jews as those in Covenant with God), but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (to provide repurchased seed for the dead forefathers of the promises; because their literal physical seed are still considered dead in sin/rejection of Christ.). 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (God's promises to Abraham are to be fulfilled, even if he creates their "seed" from stones! --Matt.3:9; Gal.3:29)  30 For as you (physical Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (physical Jews) disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient (all Spiritual Jews*), that through the mercy shown you (disobedient chosen ones, same as previous group*) they also may obtain mercy (God makes atonement for all the repentant anointed. All chosen are made equal in sin, and need to repent, even after their calling they must be washed clean --Eph.5:26. In this way there is an equalizing. None can boast.). 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." (all repentant anointed)

The last of the anointed priests and kings (the great crowd "capstone" Zech.4:7,9),
MUST be all physical Gentiles. There is no longer any record of physical Jews,
nor any preferential consideration toward them, since the time of their rejection of God's Son;
and since the opening of the kingdom hope toward Gentiles (Acts13:46; 10:15; Eph.2:14,15,16; Acts10:34,35,44,45; Gal.3:28).
These anointed (since the first century) are all Nations...both physical Jew and physical Gentiles, being from "every tribe and tongue and people and nation". (Rev.5:9,10; 7:9)...all called to be spiritual Jews (Rev.7:4; Rom.2:28,28; Gal.3:26,29,28; Matt.3:9; Gen.12:2; 17:4)

I know you only asked about Rom.11:16, but I believe the context enforces the proper interpretation.



  1. "I am under the impressions that not all who are invited to reign in the kingdom, make it "

    Revelation 3:21

    Rev 3:21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

    To the one that conquers

    The one that conquers will sit down on throne, that is, will rule as King (Rev 5:9,10)

    Little Flock and the Other sheep

    1. This is correct. (Acts14:22; Matt.10:33,34; Rev.12:4; 8:10,11; 9:1,11; 13:11; 2Pet.2:20,21,22)
      I have also been asked if the tribes of Israel are all those who put faith in Christ.
      Here is my reply:
      "As explained scripturally in many previous posts, I do not believe that any are "Israel" unless they are taken into covenant with God, and receive the circumcision of the heart by spirit (Rom.2:28,29). Just as with physical Israel, one must be a descendant of Abraham. Spiritual Israel are spiritual seed of Abraham (Gal.3:28,29) and these are the heirs of the promises given to Abraham (Gen.22:18; Rev.22:1,2,3). Those promises were for possession of the earth...and to be the channel of provisions that will bless all mankind. The deeper one studies these things, the more one finds clarity and proof, that the "Israel of God" are the new creation of chosen ones. (Gal.6:15,16) along with their offspring (Gal.4:26). Those martyred and sealed from among them, attain the prize and become the eternal Temple/Tent of God, /Mount Zion, /the 144,000.
      If all those of voluntary faith were "Israel", then that would make all equal. The called, chosen and faithful (Rev.17:14) by God are the chosen seed of Abraham, which we know does not depend upon personal desire, will, or personal choice. It is from among THESE chosen ones who have had spirit bear witness to them, who are able to be sealed as faithful (Mark 8:35; Rev.6:9-11).


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