Monday, August 29, 2016

144000 and Great Crowd, Compared

This post is an addition made to ("Who are the 144000?").

The Great Crowd can be included in God's priestly group who stand for truth (symbolic meaning of 144000) when that number is regarded as not so much literal and numerical, but as those who testify to truth. There can be a group of Testifiers to Truth ("144000"), later joined by more who Testify to Truth. Although the group increases, the label of that number's meaning, remains the same.

Yet a distinction is made in Rev.7, between the 144000, and those who appear "afterward" (Rev.7:9).
We are told in Rev. ch.20, that the 144000 reign with Christ during the Thousand years (Rev.20:4-6). It is after the "Thousand Years", that Satan is released, and the Great Tribulation ensues (Rev.20:2-3,7) (Satan's "short time" of release Rev.20:3; 12:12,17).

During the "Thousand Years", Satan is restrained. Those who rule with Christ during that time, are not overcome by Satan's Beasts and their slave mark (Rev.20:4). After Satan's release, he empowers the false prophet and it's Beast, with powerful deception (Rev.16:13-16; 13:4,11; 20:7-8; 17:14; 20:9; 11:3,5; Jer.5:14; 23:29; Matt.10:20) (2Thess.2:9,11,8; Rev.2:16).
Initially, the Great Crowd are overcome (Rev.13:7; Dan.11:31-33; Rev.13:10 <Col.2:8; Luke21:24; Rev.11:2; Matt.5:13) (LINK). Of these, a remnant of those who face the Great Tribulation, will be saved (Matt.24:24-25,21-22; Dan.12:1; Jer.23:3; Mark13:26-27). These survivors, are the Great Crowd.

Therefore, the experience of the Great Crowd, differs from the previous faithful priests.
The previous 144000 had never accepted the slave mark of the Beasts (Rev.20:4) who are unleashed during the Great Tribulation (Rev.13:1,11). The remnant (remaining ones of the seed -Rev.12:17,15) are overcome (Rev.13:7), and must be rescued (Jer.31:11; Isa.48:20; 51:11). These are required to repent of their soiled identity, and be given white robes (Zech.3:3-4,8; Rev.3:18; Isa.1:18; Eze.18:27; Rev.19:8; 7:9,14). Not all, repent (Rev.2:21-22; 9:20-21; 16:9-11) (1Kings8:46-50; Mal.3:6).

The previous group of 144000 were in the Lamb's book of life during Christ's "Thousand Year" reign ("first resurrection"). The "second death"--
    (being overcome by death again, after having received redemption from Adamic sin and "first" death
    -Rom.5:12; John6:63; 5:24; 1Cor.15:45; 1Pet.1:23)
--"has no hold" on those previous "144000" (Rev.20:6; Luke10:19).
Yet for a time, the "sting" of the agents of death (1Cor.15:55,26; Rev.20:5,14), gains a hold on the remnant (Rev.9:10) during Satan's release and Great Tribulation. (LINK)

When the Chosen who are living after the Thousand Years, are overcome by the released Satan and the resources of his abyss; they are overcome once again by death. having lost their slave mark of God (Deut.11:18), (being slave-marked by the laws of the Beast -Rev.13:16)
(Rev.13:7; 9:4-6,10; 7:3) (LINK) (666)
Yet there will be those who repent, are saved, and are added to those who receive life (Rev.3:3,19; 20:6,5) "after the thousand years have ended".
This is why the "144000" and the "Great Crowd" are depicted by scripture, as two different groups.
Yet in the end, the survivors of the Great Tribulation, battle for Truth (Rev.12:10-11; Luke 12:8; Rev.6:9-11; Mark 8:35; Rev.11:8), alongside Christ at Armageddon (Rev.17:14; 19:14,8), and are united with the previous "144000", in the Lamb's scroll of life (Zech.3:7-10; Rev.3:5).



  1. Rev 20:4 “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

    The Beast doesnt come into existence until this “short period of time”. The “short period of time” of satans release from the abyss caused by Russell and unfaithful Anointed of his time. This means the Beast only exists during this time satans short period.

    But as we have learnt about Antipas,that satan hid his identity hidden by influencing translators of Revelation,so this is happening with regards to the “1,000” years “ended”....and satans short period supposedly AFTER this. This is still WT thinking. That satan “short period of time” begins AFTER the 1,000 years ends. But this is NOT what Rev 20:4 says

    If this is the case,that the 1,000 years ends and his “short period” begins,then the above verse and what it reveals,is nullified.

    Rev 20;4 says those Anointed who did not worship the Beast,conquered it by their testimony...and were beheaded by the Beast. This could only happen to those mentioned because of the Beast being in existence. It has not existed in any other time period. But the verse goes onto say,that because they conquered the Beast, “They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”.

    1. What is your understanding of Rev.17:8?

    2. What is your understanding of Rev.20:7 and Rev.20:3?
      Rev.20:4 does NOT say, that those who never worshiped the Beast, conquered it by their testimony, nor that they conquered the Beast. It says that they
      ...died for their testimony (all anointed do, from the time of Christ).
      ...they never worshiped the Beast
      ...they reigned with Christ during the Thousand years... before Satan was released (Rev.20:7).

  2. So those who conquered the Beast JOINED Christ in ruling for the remainder of the 1,000 years DURING the “short period of time” of deception...which must be PART of the 1,000 years!

    So the Beast exists WITHIN the concluding part of the 1,000 years. What happens within the “short period of time” “brings to an end” the 1,000 years,which is what the Greek word were “ENDED” means:"thousand years were ENDED" also means "were completed" bring to a close,to finish,to end.

    In other words,the short period of time satan has with his FINAL deception using the Beast,brings to a close the 1,000 years,which is the “symbolic time the messianic Kingdom exists.

    Those who rule with Christ,who conquer the Beast,help to bring judgement upon other Anointed who do NOT conquer the beast,which is the purpose of the 1,000 years. Rev 20:4 “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.” The Anointed Beast conquerors were given “authority to judge.”...and have this DURING the remainder of the 1,000 years. THUS “They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Those who conquer the Beast,then help by their Witnessing,to judge Anointed who choose NOT to conquer the Beast and STAY IDOLATORS against Christ and Jah.

    Those who conquer the Beast,are beheaded by it,then rule with Christ DURING the “short period” left of the 1,000 years. This proves the 1,000 years continue,because those killed by the Beast which exists within satans short period of time,rule with Christ “a thousand years”. These Anointed Beast conquerors rule with Christ “a thousand years”....NOT after the 1,000 years ended.

    The “short period of time” is the final deception satan brings during the closing time of the 1,000 years...and that helps to bring to a close the purpose of the 1,000 years. To sort out those Anointed fit to be rulers within Gods Kingdom.

    The symbolic 1,000 years is the symbolic length of Jesus rule within the Messianic Kingdom,which is used to sort out Invited Anointed,to see if they are fit to be part of the “age to come” which is Gods Kingdom. Since the great deception we are witnessing ALSO helps to sort out which invited Anointed will be part of Gods Kingdom,Christ's Kingdom/the 1,000 years continues till now!

    Rev 20:4 backs this by saying that those who conquer the beast during satans short period,THEN join Christ in judging/ruling and by their witnessing,sort out which Anointed then enter Gods Kingdom. Those who conquer the Beast rule with Christ, WHICH IS PART OF THE 1,000 YEARS. Rev20:4.

    So this is a wonderful point. Anointed Beast conquerors,rule with Christ for the remainder of the symbolic 1,000 years. To conclude its purpose of judging Anointed as fit for Gods kingdom or not!

    1. You have lost sight of the judging position of the foundation stones of God's Temple.
      They judge all those to enter their tribe, through the "gate" they oversee (Rev.7:4; 21:14,12; Matt.19:27-28).
      Anointed have been under test and becoming sealed as slaves of God (and judged) since the first century, during their own lifetimes. "The LAST enemy death" is conquered, during the Great Tribulation and Armageddon, when the final remnant receive the second resurrection, and join the previous "144000" [1Thess.4:16-17; Rev.11:12 (Rev.11:3,7,12) Rev.20:5-6]

    2. Some of those who never worshiped the Beast, are mentioned in Rev.3:4.
      Those who do face the Beast, and conquer it, can join them (Rev.15:2; 3:5-6).

    3. You do however, introduce a good point. If the apostles judge the 12 tribes...
      who judges the Great Crowd to come after them?
      (The apostles would be unable to approve any of them, while they captive idolaters.)
      That question is the basis of a new post, "How are the "Great Crowd" judged, and by whom?"
      I will work on it starting today, and when it is ready, it will be posted on this Main Page.


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