Sunday, January 13, 2013

When do the Twelve Apostles, judge the Twelve tribes?


Good day sister D
 Thank you so much for sharing that with me, i can just imagine how that makes you feel. You are truly Jehovah's chosen vessel, clay in His hands, letting him do with you what he pleases.
 As usual i have been following your letters with interest and i drew a couple of points from the letter you posted yesterday:-

 Matt 19:27-28 - does that mean that the apostles were resurrected when Jesus received the rulership from his father Jehovah in 33 CE and have been judging the invited ones since then?


Here is the scripture you reference...
Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Your question:
Matt 19:27, 28 - does that mean that the apostles were resurrected when Jesus received the rulership from his father Jehovah in 33 CE and have been judging the invited ones since then?

  [First, I just need to state the point that when called and chosen by God, it is not an invitation that can be refused (Rom.11:29). One becomes either faithful or unfaithful. Rev.17:14]

Likely Peter did not yet realize that all anointed would have to leave "everything to follow" Christ (Luke 9:23; Mark 8:34-5)...not just the apostles. He also may not have yet realized, that these twelve apostles, as such, (1Cor.12:28,29) would occupy "first" place in the rank of the entire anointed body of Christ. They would be the foundation of faith, for all temple stones to follow them (Rev.21:14; 1Pet.2:5; Eph.2:20-22).
When Jesus told them that they would judge the tribes of Israel, they may have been thinking "fleshly" Israel. (Acts 1:6; Gal.4:25) rather than the Israel of God to come (Rom.9:6; 2:28-29; Gal.3:2; 6:16). They viewed the restoration of God's people, also as literal. 
See what God had in mind... 

"3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”
4 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah:
How awful that day will be!
    No other will be like it. (Matt.24:21,9-13)
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
    but he will be saved out of it. (Rev.12:17; Luke 21:20; Rev.20:9)
8 “‘In that day,’ declares the Lord Almighty,
    ‘I will break the yoke off their necks
and will tear off their bonds; (Rev.13:7,10; Luke 21:24; Eze.21:12-13)
    no longer will foreigners enslave them. 
14 All your allies have forgotten you;
    they care nothing for you.
I have struck you as an enemy would
    and punished you as would the cruel,
because your guilt is so great
    and your sins so many. (Eze.44:10; Rev.13:7-8)
17 But I will restore you to health
    and heal your wounds,’
declares the Lord,
‘because you are called an outcast,
    Zion for whom no one cares.’ (John16:2; Mark13:13; Rev.11:7-10)
18 “This is what the Lord says:
“‘I will restore the fortunes of Jacob’s tents (Job 33:18,23-24,30; Ps.49:15; Isa.48:20; Jer.51:6; Rev.18:4)
    and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city will be rebuilt on her ruins,
    and the palace will stand in its proper place. (Dan.9:25; 8:11-14; 11:31-33,34-35,36-37; 2Thess.2:4; Mark13:14; Rev.13:15)(Dan.11:44-45; 2Thess.2:8) (Dan.12:1,4,7-9,10-13)
Chapter 31 
“1 At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.” (Rev.21:3,7)
2 This is what the Lord says:
“The people who survive the sword (Rev.13:10; 19:15; Heb.4:12)
    will find favor in the wilderness; (Eze.21:16-17; Matt.24:15-16; Eze.34:13; 36:8; Luke21:21-22; 17:29-31,32-34; Luke17:35-37 KJV)
    I will come to give rest to Israel.”
(Rev.14:13; Heb.4:1,9,11)
I suggest reading the entire chapters of Jer.30 and Jer.31, for those who recognize the connection to Revelation.

Built on the apostolic foundation, all other parts of the Israel of God, would be in subjection to these who are "first".
This is demonstrated, when all anointed "parts" of Christ's body, subject themselves to the Greek scriptures, which were written largely by these 12.

Jesus here tells Peter, exactly how these would be "first". He says that they will "judge" the "tribes of Israel". These twelve are the main part of the "foundation" of the Holy City (Eph.2:19,20; 3:5; Rev.21:14); and they determine all those to be "built up" upon them/their foundation (1Cor.3:9,10; Eph.2:21). Those tribes that were to come, are referred to in Rev.7:4. There it speaks of those who attain a seal to become established as part of the 12 tribes of the 144,000, built upon the "foundation" of the 12 apostles.

As stated at Rev.7:4, these are sealed from among the twelve tribes. In other words, those being selected, are from a pool of the twelve tribes of spiritual Jews (Rom.2:29; Gal.3:29), people in Covenant with God..."Israelites" (Gal.6:15,16). They have all been offered a promise from God....That should they prove faithful and endure to the end, they will become sealed heirs with Christ. (1Cor.4:1,2; Matt.24:13)

Not all who are bought with Christ's blood (Rev.5:9,10) succeed in winning that race (1Cor.9:24,25; Luke21:36; Matt.24:13; Mark 8:35; Rev.3:11; 2Pet.2:1; Matt.22:14). Jesus heeds the One who determines who gains life (Rev.3:5; 20:15; 13:8; Dan.12:1)(Rev.7:2-4; John6:27; 2Cor.1:21-22; John18:9)
Who assist in judging the winners of the seal? Here Jesus tells the twelve apostles, that it will be them.... just as the 12 sons of Jacob/fleshly Israel, had a tribe of sons under each of them.
When do the twelve begin this job of judging the candidates....which started to be chosen in the first century, up until our present time? I offer you what the scriptures indicate as possible answers.

First possibility...if the apostles are written in the Lamb's scroll of life, but rest in their grave until the end...this would mean that they would need to be conscious for the judging of the last chosen ones...the remnant to come out of the Great Tribulation. Judging those who preceded the remnant, would not have to be judged during the time in which they lived, because their record of deeds could be brought up and judged at the same time that the remnant are being judged. The final ones could not be sealed without the conscious presence of the apostles, because if they are to judge the 12 tribes....these could not all be sealed without their passing judgment.
We are told that judgment takes place in the time of the end (Rev.20:11-13), based upon the teachings of Jesus (John12:48), which were recorded by the apostles.

Second possibility...Jesus said that many living during his era would not see death at all. We are also told that many pass directly from death to life....a living condition in spirit. Other men of faith are also mentioned as "living" to יהוה, YHVH God. These are in the "memorial tombs". But Ec.9:5,6 tells us that the "living" are conscious that they will die; but as for the "dead" "the remembrance of them is forgotten". Although we have been previous taught by the WT that this is applied physically, I see it as spiritual......

"For the living know that they will die,
    but the dead know nothing;
[Eph.2:1 (]
they have no further reward,
    and even their name is forgotten.
  Their love, their hate
    and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
    in anything that happens under the sun."

These "dead" are "forgotten". I suspect they are not in the "memorial tombs" awaiting resurrection (John5:28,29).
As these verses state..."they have no further reward" and "never again will they have a part in anything".
I strongly suspect that in God's eyes, they were spiritually dead, and have no future reward, nor life, under God's Kingdom/"anything that happens under the sun" (Mal.4:2; Rev.22:16). (Col.2:13; Eph.2:1; 1Tim.5:6).
Those deemed as worthy of a place in God's memory, (viewed by Him as good as living); seem capable of physical death. As Ec.9:5 stated, "the 'living' are conscious that they will die".
So we see it is likely that those who were faithful before Christ died (in every sense), although saved in God's memory for a future time, when they would be "made perfect" through a future City prepared for them (Heb.11:13,16,39,40), did indeed "die".

My point is that up until the apostles, faithful men died and became unconscious.
What about after Jesus came?
John11:25,26 reads...
"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

This riddle contains our answer, as to whether the apostles transferred from physical life to spiritual life, without ever dying. If so, it would enable them to judge chosen anointed, during the period in which each of those anointed ones lived.
Please also consider John6:47,50,51,58; John8:51; John5:24; 1John3:14 which show that not only may the apostles have never died, all faithful anointed attain this life. 
See also 1Cor.15:20-26...
"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, those who belong to him at his presence. (Matt.24:3) 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
1Cor.15:51-54 reads;
"51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (Rev.11:15). For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’ (1Cor.15:26)
When we read;
"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the Thousand Years has ended" (Rev.20:5)
It is speaking of 'coming to life' in spirit, through faithfulness (Eph.2:1). 
The 144000 of the first resurrection (Rev.7:3-4; 14:1,4-5; 20:4,5-6) gained their spiritual standing of life, during the symbolic "thousand year" rule of Jesus Christ. 
The "rest"/remnant do not come to life until after the "thousand years", because they go through the Great Tribulation, when Satan is released and wages a successful war against these remaining ones/remnant of the woman's seed (Rev.20:7-9; 12:17; Luke21:20; Rev.13:7). To gain God's favor of life (Rev.2:10; James 1:12), they must conquer and prove victorious amid the idolatry toward the two beasts (Rev.13:1,11,15,7-8,13; Col.2:8; Luke 21:24; Rev.15:2) (Eze.37:5,14; Rev.11:11)
This last enemy death, is not fully destroyed until all are resurrected to life. This is not talking about the first resurrection of the priests and kings, who are said to get life first. (Rev.20:4,6)

We know that Christ's "presence" with his anointed, started in the first century and was promised to last until the end (see Matt.28:20 B)...
" And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

From all these foregoing scriptures, it would seem that anointed faithful are "written in heaven" as worthy of life (Luke 10:20; Heb.12:22-23), even while they are still living their physical lifetimes. 
We are told that we must be born again as spirit, in order to inherit the kingdom of God (John3:3,6).
There were those said to be so born, in the first century (1Pet.1:23). Did Peter speak of an assurance, a hope... or a present reality? 
Perhaps we should realize that the timing does not matter. What does matter, is how one is judged by God. If we receive a favorable standing; the fulfillment of God's promises are sure and guaranteed. Eternal life is given, regardless of when it is bestowed.
Were the apostles "changed" in the twinkle of an eye, but "never died"  upon their physical deaths (John11:26)?
Note 1Cor.15:50-55...
"I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead (spiritually dead) will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?”
The promise is sure. Paul does not give undue attention to a calendar, but to the situation and circumstances. I agree with him. What matters is the victory over death and the grace of God... not the date upon which it happens.

The "sleep" referred to here (1Cor.15:51) is the state of temporary death (John11:11,12,13).
Paul is saying that not all will fall asleep in death. Yet clearly....some will (Matt.25:5; Luke 21:36 ESV) (Remember John11:25,26 ?)
Jesus said that those who "believe in him, though he dies, will live".
And of another group, "and whoever lives by believing in me will never die"
I see two groups....
1. Those already born of "incorruptible seed" (1Pet.1:23; John1:13; James 1:18; 1Pet.1:3; 1John3:9) will never die,
    but have already "passed over, from death to life" (the first resurrection -Rev.20:4,5-6)
2. Those who were dead in their sin of idolatry (Eph.2:1-2; Col.2:13; Rev.3:1; 13:7-8), but subsequently gained victory over that idolatry (Rev.15:2; 14:5) and came to life spiritually, by securing divine favor (Rev.3:5).

Why then does Paul refer to the first resurrection as occurring "at the last trumpet"?
I personally remain open to this arrival of the "seventh trumpet", as being within the heart of each sealed one.....just as the arrival of the daystar is (2Pet.1:19; 1Pet.1:22,23); which according to vision given me, occurs at the end of the "seven times". Each time carries with it, a symbolic "milestone" of accomplishment, within the heart of each anointed one, until they reach the full maturity of Christ (Eph.4:13; Heb.5:14; 1Cor.2:6). did the twelve apostles judge each chosen anointed one throughout time?
While I am not positively sure at this time, I hope the scriptures I have shared with you help you to see a good possibility, that the testimony the apostles gave, are a basis for judgment. Attaining spirit life now, is possible by gaining God's favor during our time in the flesh (2Cor.5:10). The timing of when eternal life is bestowed, I see as irrelevant.
If the first resurrection does not occur until a future common "seventh trumpet", when all will be raised at the same time chronologically and physically; then however and whenever the apostles do their judging of those sealed;
all scripture will be fulfilled and proven true.
If Holy Spirit widens my understanding of this, I will post more on the subject.
Thanks for your good question,


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