Thursday, April 7, 2016

The Memorial - When?

STILL EDITING

Below is a comment which was left.

Because my reply is too long for the comment format, I am posting it here.

Anonymous left a comment on my post "This Year's Memorial"
as follows: 
"While there are some glaring doctrinal errors embedded in the faith of Jehovah’s witnesses I do not see any conflict with scripture as to when they hold the Memorial. If as you stated there is no evidence that Jesus left any specified date and time to hold the Memorial then the matter of partaking is left up to the conscience of the individual partaking. As such there is no impropriety associated with continuing the practice of observing on Nissan 14th. In fact it supports scripture and the gospel accounts to do just that.
We know from scripture that Jesus was killed on the same day that the other Passover victims were being killed and according to the Law of Moses this could have only occurred on the 14th of the month. We can’t change the order of events to support his last supper at the expense of his death.
His death as a sacrificial offering had to conform to the sacrificial system otherwise it could not be accepted as payment or atonement. The yearly Passover was not only a commemoration of the past but also a rehearsal for the future antitypical atonement sacrifice that God himself promised to provide in the future. According to your account this never happened and God to date has not kept his word.
Jesus remained under law and the law remained in effect until his death, in order to fulfill the law he had to complete the law first. Keep in mind that the sacrificial system, the law and the temple arrangement originated with God and he is not above his own law. God’s own righteousness would demand that he work within the confines of his own system to provide atonement for mankind. To suggest otherwise calls into question the legitimacy of the sacrifice as the day you have rearranged Jesus death could not have had any legal precedent in scripture. If we take your assessment at face value, God accepted an illegitimate sacrifice which would be illegal payment for sin and extended forgiveness without any legal justification. In essence your narrative convicts God of Unrighteousness and delegitimizes Jesus sacrifice. "
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MY REPLY:

Thank you for leaving a comment. Sorry for the time it took to reply. I am presently caring for an elderly parent.
The purpose of my post above (as well as the link it contains), provides scriptures that convey a clear picture, as to when Christ both held the last supper with his disciples, as well as when the Passover lambs were sacrificed. Since you express that you believe that day to be Nisan 14;  I will provide those verses more pointedly for your consideration, and if you do not interpret those cited scriptures in the same way as I, I would appreciate your expressing here, your  
own understanding of those cited verses.

"Jehovah's Witnesses" claim to hold the Memorial on Nisan 14, and also establish this Jewish date as the time to celebrate... not the Passover, but the Memorial of Christ's last meal with his chosen disciples. I do not challenge the proper date for the Passover Sabbath, as being Nisan 14. But I have logically deduced by means of scripture, that Jesus neither held the Last Meal with his disciples, nor died, on Nisan 14. 
The scriptures also reveal, that the Passover lambs were sacrificed at twilight, as Nisan 13 was ending and Nisan 14 was starting. At twilight, the days overlapped, just as our days do, as night gradually leaves at sunrise.
The Passover lambs were to be eaten that evening, after nightfall, on the new day of Nisan 14 (Exodus 12:5-8,12-13,22,29).
After nightfall of Nisan 14, was the Passover. Therefore, it was the twilight of Nisan13-14, when the lambs were slaughtered. Jesus died at 3pm, before the arrival of that twilight, while it was still Nisan 13. God however, created a premature supernatural "twilight" as Jesus was dying (Matt.27:45-46,50; John12:35; 9:5,4), making it impossible for the Jews to have a valid twilight sacrifice and Passover in God's estimation, in the nightfall to come, on Nisan 14, 33CE.
In 33CE, the Jews had their Passover and ate the lambs, after nightfall on Nisan 14, and after Jesus died at 3pm the afternoon before. He  was laid in his tomb, previous to the onset of that day's natural twilight. The lambs had to be slaughtered at the twilight of 13-14 (The Day of Preparation), in order to be eaten during the night of Nisan 14. Otherwise, if slaughtered on the twilight of Nisan14-15, the lamb would have been eaten on Nisan 15.
Although you rightly claim, 
"If as you stated there is no evidence that Jesus left any specified date and time to hold the Memorial then the matter of partaking is left up to the conscience of the individual partaking."......
I have also said it is up to each partaker. But I must personally rely upon what scripture conveys...
Paul referred to the timing of the Memorial, at 1Cor.11:25-26. 
He referred to a specific "cup" and a specific "bread". He referred to the emblems, which Christ shared with his disciples. When did that originally occur? 
Was it on the Passover Sabbath? Was it Nisan 14? 
No to both. It was the day before, on the Day of Preparation... when all the Passover lambs were also to be sacrificed as that day began to evaporate. 
Reason and scripture dictates, that this was the specific "date" when the original partakers originally partook, and logically, the time Paul referred to as to when the annual anniversary would occur, to partake of that specific bread and cup (1Cor.11:26). When Jesus said, "Do this in memory of me" (Luke22:19); He said it on Nisan 13.
If your own reasoning concludes that an anniversary should be celebrated the day after the original event, because a previous covenant was celebrated a day later, than your reasoning differs with mine. I do not judge you or those who think like you. I simply offered (at the link) an explanation for why I had decided to partake on the Day of Preparation, for the sake of those who had requested to partake with me. I needed to tell those who wished to partake with me, my decision... Did I not? How else could we partake together? And since my decision differed from the norm, would it not be inconsiderate to set an unexpected date, without an explanation? For anyone whose conscience disagreed with my decision, they could then know to make other arrangements.

I clearly stated in the link above, that in light of 1Cor.5:7, I do not take a dogmatic approach, nor judge another, as to whether they choose to partake on the Jewish Passover (which date, commemorates a dead covenant), nor do I judge those who choose to partake on the date when Jesus and his disciples inaugurated the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:7).
See link: (http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2016/03/this-years-memorial.html)
I choose to be identified with the New Covenant and its original Memorial, and not the Old Covenant foreshadowed by Moses and Egypt. The saving blood of God's new Lamb fulfills that which the literal Passover lambs only hinted at. I wish to embrace that fulfillment, over keeping the Jewish law (Gal.4:9-11; 2:21). In fact, when the Jews celebrated the Passover after nightfall (at midnight) at the start of Nisan 14 33CE, it was a futile act. They had already condemned and executed the previous afternoon, their only real hope... the fulfillment of God's "Passover" and salvation of the "firstborn" from the Destroyer
(Heb.11:28; 12:23; Luke10:20).  
Why would we who have been set free by Christ, want to continue to imitate the timing of those hypocrites, who failed their time of inspection? From Christ's death on Nisan 13 onward, the Jewish Passover is futility.
You stated,
"As such there is no impropriety associated with continuing the practice of observing on Nissan 14th. In fact it supports scripture and the gospel accounts to do just that."
It would be considerate when writing to someone who wishes to be guided by scripture, to provide the scriptures you refer to at the time of your assertion.

You also state:
"We know from scripture that Jesus was killed on the same day that the other Passover victims were being killed"...
This is correct, and it was Nisan 13... The Day of Preparation, which ran from twilight of Nisan12-13 to twilight of Nisan 13-14. Jesus both conducted the Memorial and died, during that Jewish day of Nisan 13.
You continue:
"and according to the Law of Moses this could have only occurred on the 14th of the month."...
No, according to Moses, the eating of the Lamb and the Passover by the Destroyer, occurred on Nisan 14...
not the slaughter of the lambs, nor the other preparations, which were to be completed by nightfall on the Day of Preparation (Nisan 13), when the twilight of Nisan 14, began. Jesus died at 3pm, on Nisan 13. The Passover lambs were to be slaughtered before nightfall that same day.
You continue...
"We can’t change the order of events to support his last supper at the expense of his death."...
That is correct. But since the Jewish day is from sundown to sundown, Christ instituted the Memorial, and died, on the same day...
the day of Preparation, on Nisan 13. He had the supper after sundown, and died before the next sundown, and before the start of Nisan 14 (Luke 23:52-56).
You state:
"His death as a sacrificial offering had to conform to the sacrificial system otherwise it could not be accepted as payment or atonement."

In fact, Jesus stated repeatedly, that he matured to become no part of the system you speak of, as he expects his followers to be no part. In fact, he exposed and ultimately destroyed that "world"/"system", for the sake of Truth (Luke21:5-6; Matt.23:38-39; John2:18-21; 1Cor.12:27; Eph.2:6,20-22). I don't know where you get the idea that atoning sacrifices can only be validly offered on Nisan 14, but the scriptures disagree. Blood is needed for forgiveness (Heb.9:22). But such sacrifices for sin occurred on many days (Lev.17:11; 1:2,4), just as our own sacrifice for sins comes before God, irrespective of the date (Phil.3:10; Rom.6:5; Rev.6:9; 7:14; 6:11; Zech.11:4; Mark 8:35). 
These verses speak of a New Covenant that requires a sharing in the blood and sacrifice of Christ, irrespective of the literal date...
not of a dead and empty ritual which reflects a lost promise, due to unfaithfulness (Matt.21:43). 

Christ has already fulfilled the Law... not by a date, but by his blood. If you regard that blood as invalid because it was shed on the Day of Preparation, then I have no response, other than to say that you are guilty of your own accusation against me...
"According to your account this never happened and God to date has not kept his word."
On the contrary, I acknowledge what Christ accomplished, and when he accomplished it according to scripture.
It is you who deem that sacrifice as invalid, because it was not on Nisan 14.
Why do you believe that God requires us to respect the literal timing of a covenant that has been replaced since Nisan13, 33CE, rather than respecting when Jesus established a New Covenant, by his Last Supper and Death? 
Please send me the scriptures that lead your thoughts in this way.

You state:
"Jesus remained under law and the law remained in effect until his death, in order to fulfill the law he had to complete the law first."

And what was the Law, which Jesus fulfilled? Was it the Jewish Law?
Did he live subservient to the Jewish Law?

  Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matt.22:37-40). (Rom.13:10; Gal.5:14)
See Matt.12:2,10,22,13-14; John5:10-11; etc.
Jesus fulfilled the Law (John10:11; 15:10; 14:31) and so must we (1John3:16; John13:34-35), but as is seen from the above scriptures, Jesus and his apostles rightly lived according to greater truths. 

You state:
"the law and the temple arrangement originated with God and he is not above his own law. "
God's laws were not for God, but for us to be taught by them (Mark2:27; Matt.19:8).
Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath. He was over it, and went beyond it's lessons to a sinful nation (Matt.12:2,5-8). 
His disciples followed that example.

You state;
"God’s own righteousness would demand that he work within the confines of his own system to provide atonement for mankind. "

God keeps His promises, and concerning the seed promised to Abraham, as well as the Passover Lamb (the Jewish festival of Passover lasted a week), God kept His promises. They were fulfilled. 
But do not confuse God's promises with the embellished system created by the Jews, or God's shepherding staff of Laws to guide His nation, as an obligation for God to follow. He condescended to deal with mankind and their sinful state (Ps.113:5-6; 8:4) when providing the moral guidance they needed. His ways are above all the ways of mankind (Isa.55:9), including the guidance necessary for an unruly people who needed regulation. Do not make the moral deficit of such a people and their need for discipline, into the image of God.
If you believe that Christ's sacrifice was "illegitimate" because he both died and commemorated his death on the Day of Preparation...
your contention is not with me, but with God.

Again, if you interpret the timing of  Mark14:12; 15:42-43; Matt.26:17;  John19:14,31,42 in a different way than I do, please explain, and include the scriptural backing, so that I may benefit. Please keep in mind that all Jewish days ran from sundown to sundown, including the Day of Preparation and the Passover Sabbath. The Jewish twilight was what we ascribe to sunrise, regarding the start of a new day.
It is also notable, that according to the Jewish method of arriving at Nisan 14 (Spring equinox and the previous new moon),
"Jehovah's Witnesses" partook this year, on Nisan 15.

We are told at Mal.3:1-3, (Zech.13:9) that it is not "Jehovah's Witnesses" that God's refinement is directed toward at Christ's arrival.
He comes to purify his own priesthood (Rev.3:19). If our beliefs are accurately based upon scripture (Matt.7:24; 1Cor.3:11-15), our fire-resistant faith will not perish (2Pet.3:10-12), nor the teachings we have sourced in God's Word (John15:16; Rom.3:4; Matt.12:37).
We all have been defiled by the demonic exhalations of the wicked steward (Rev.2:20; 17:2; 1Tim.4:1; Rev.16:13-16)...
becoming drunk on that harlot's wine. 
We all need to obey Christ, and wake up (Matt.25:5-7; Mark13:33). Once we do, we can either "buy from those who sell" (Matt.25:9-10; Rev.13:17) and become their branded slaves (Rev.13:16; Isa.44:20; Col.2:8; Rev.13:10; 17:5)...
Or return to God and His Word, "buy" from Him (Isa.55:1-2; Rev.3:18), and be marked as His slaves (Deut.11:18; Rev.7:3; 14:1; 22:4-5). Now is the time of separation and harvest, just as it was among the Jews of the first century.
We can celebrate the Passover when they impotently did,
or on the day that Christ memorialized his death and died, according to his request (Luke22:19; 1Cor.11:23-24,26).

2 comments:

  1. Thank You Pearl for that well laid out/methodical reasoning especially the supporting scriptures.

    Love in Christ...Anon

    ReplyDelete
  2. As Jesus expressed, we can do nothing without the Father of all light. He feeds us all, and those fed first, must feed others. Please pray in behalf of my own faithfulness to complete and fulfill my responsibilities before God. I depend upon His strength and guidance.

    ReplyDelete

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