Monday, January 14, 2013

The Great Crowd (again)

 UPDATED

Dear Pearl,
Please take into consideration one important argument...

-- the Rev 7 is a vision ... the first ones are first in importance before Father 
it is seen the total group of the 144000 ones - ( after being made free from Babylon -the contemporaries ones) , cleansed and sealed = a total amount of 144000  out of every tribe of Spiritual Israel .
SO , that means all the actions from Jehovah's part for the building up of this "group"  is done/finished

then it comes :

9. After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues......

please see (consider)  that John (the present "remnant") sees  this "after these things" / that shows us another action, with another group , an action which continues after the completeness of the first actions with the first group 
(more than that: the first ones are "out of every tribe of Israel"   while the seconds are "out of very tribes, nations, tongues...)

Now, there is something common to Jehovah's witnesses , which no other so called christian group has: - I mean a truth , the fact that there are two folds of people: the Christians
 - that is those who have faith and obey Christ /
-  and those (of course, with faith)  called by Father to be with His Son and having the anointment of the Spirit upon them 

REPLY:

Dear Xxx,
First I want to thank you for your support, when you post links to the writings.
Many come and read due to your help.
Now for your comments....
Not all anointed, are prophets (1Cor.12:27,29; Num.12:6). Not all of the remnant are "like the apostle John" was, when he was given visions of the end, which he wrote down in the book of Revelation.
For those never given visions, it is hard to understand 
how they are shown and written, and why  they are written the way that they are.
I was shown many visions. 
It is necessary to see them, one at a time. 
Yet...the things I saw did not happen (and are not fulfilled) in the order I was shown them.
In fact....I was shown the same things...over and over again...from various angles, other perspectives, and different viewpoints. Each vision added to my understanding of the same subjects and events.

So you see, the last vision did not happen "in time", after the first vision. 
Neither did their fulfillment happen in the order they were shown.
Can you understand this?

When Jesus described what "the kingdom of the heavens will become like", he gave many different parables.
Do we imagine that he was talking about many different kingdoms that were all different?
No. We know that it is all the same kingdom. We know that if we combine all the different descriptions, we make a full picture... to understand many things about one  kingdom.
This is how visions take place. There are many different visions....all describing different parts of the same truth.
Like many facets of the same gem, we must see each facet before we see the whole gem. 
This is what different visions accomplish.
It is the same with the visions given to John. I know this. I also had visions just like him.
I was given the visions to explain the book of Revelation. I know how to understand the way it is written.
Those who have not learned this way....they take the book from a human standpoint, and view the prophecies as having human timing.
When John says..."then I saw"...
he is not saying what happens next in prophecy .
He is telling what he saw next
There is a big difference between how a prophet learns, and how reality takes place.
When Jesus said what the kingdom will become like (Matt.13:24,31,33,45,47; Matt.25:1,14);
he did not mean that things would happen in that order....
that first the kingdom would be like a farmer...and then later... after that, it would become like a mustard grain.
No. All these things happen during the same time. 
But we do not learn each part of the Truth, all at the same time, do we?
And Jesus does not teach  all the facts at the same time (John16:12). 
Otherwise, there would only be one  parable/illustration. 


Please understand that when Rev.7:4 describes the 144000 (as being Jews) (see Rom.2:29; Gal.3:29),
and THEN describes the Great Crowd as being of all nations (Rev.7:9; 5:9,10; Gal.3:28)...
IT IS NOT DESCRIBING two different time periods. It is not describing two different groups of people.
Just as Jesus gave many illustrations for the "kingdom" and what it would become like;
he also gave many descriptions of the sealed anointed. Why? So that we could understand these things more fully, with more detail.
This is the situation when we learn by means of illustrations, and when we learn by means of visions, (such as the book of Revelation). Illustrations compliment one another. Visions compliment one another. They each add information to the whole understanding. know this.

You have made assumptions without the direction of scripture to do so.  
It is true that the Great Crowd shares traits with the 144000 priests, 
and yet it has a unique trait....these come through the time of the end and the Great Tribulation. 
Not all 144000 do that.

If you have a graduating class, and some of them receive special awards....
this does not mean that the students who are honored are not a part of the original graduating class, does it?
We are told that the Great Crowd have the honor of spiritually surviving the Great Tribulation.
This does not mean that they are not a part of the 144,000.

Rev.7 teaches us....and we must accept... that the 144000 are spiritual  "Jews" (Rom.2:28,29; Rev.7:4)
and at the same time also physically come from all Nations (Rev.5:9,10) (both Jew and Gentile- Acts10:34,35; 15:12,13,14,15,16,17; 11:9; Rom.9:23,24; Eph.2:19,20,21,22; Rev.7:9)

By Jesus showing John that the heirs of the kingdom were BOTH spiritual Jews (in covenant), but also physically from all Nations...we learn both these truths about them...
That they are Jews (God's people)...BUT NOT PHYSICAL JEWS in the flesh. This corrects many present misunderstandings.

Both these truths (spiritual Jew, yet physical Gentile) cannot be illustrated all at once in the same symbols at the same time....
so they are shown in successive illustrations....
consistent with the way Jesus always taught, by many successive illustrations.
A vision IS an illustration. The only difference is that the student sees and lives it, rather than only hearing it. Anyone can read the Bible's illustrations. They can pray for Holy Spirit to understand, and they can read explanations from others.
But when God's spirit gives a vision, there is no room for misunderstanding. The prophet can question God's messenger or Christ directly, when the prophet needs more information or is confused. To experience something directly, makes a prophet a valid witness. Once a prophet is taken in the power of the spirit into spiritual, unseen realities surrounding events and identities; their faith and knowledge is a powerful shield against Satan's deceptions and doctrines/interpretations of men.

Each description and illustration,
and each vision,
teaches us a different part of the very same truth about the very same thing. 
I have learned directly from Christ.
I have received visions just like the apostle John. 
I know how Jesus teaches, and I know and understand how to interpret what 
both I and John were shown.

We can not nullify scripture. Each and every thing Revelation tells us about the Great Crowd, 
is how the chosen priests  are described in other scriptures.
We must accept the Bible's own interpretation of who the Great Crowd is.

Let us consider only one  of the many descriptions of them....Rev.7:15
"and they render sacred service day and night in his temple".

The "Temple" in Revelation is not  the physical "shadow" of the reality to come (Col.2:17; Heb.8:5). 
The "temple" in Revelation symbolizes the anointed 144000 priests, among whom God dwells (1Cor.3:16; Eph.2:21,22; Rev.7:15 D).

If you read  Heb.10:11; 8:1,2; Num.18:5,6,7; 2Chron.23:6; 1Chron.23:3,4,5,24,28,30,32; Eze.44:5,9,15,16
("day and night" Rev.7:15; 1Chron23:30)
you will see that the Bible says that the only ones permitted to "render sacred service...in the Temple" are Jehovah's priests (2Chron.23:6).
They are the only ones allowed to do this (Num.18:7).
Rev.7:9 tells us that these include those who were not his people (physical Gentiles), but these have now been "shown mercy" and made priests....
physical "Gentiles" made into spiritual Jews and  Holy priests (1Pet.2:10,9; Rev.5:9,10)
by means of spiritual circumcision of the heart (Rom.2:28,29; Col.2:11).

These who serve in God's temple, can not be spiritual Gentiles (uncircumcised in heart by spirit) who never received the circumcision of the heart (Eze.44:7). Only anointed, spiritual "Jews" and priests receive this circumcision by spirit (Rom.2:28,29) and may enter the temple to render acceptable sacred service (1Pet.2:5; Rev.7:15). 
Those born in the flesh as Gentilesbut who receive a circumcised heart by spirit, become spiritual Jews. (Eph.2:11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21; Eph.2:22; Eph.3:1,2,3,4,5,6]

If you and Xxxx do not understand these things,
you will not perceive the "disgusting thing" standing in the "Holy Place"
     (spiritual Gentiles- not anointed) standing in the Temple (taking over the priesthood- 2Chron.13:9; Eze.44:7).
If you still see the Great Crowd as not anointed (uncircumcised in heart), 
and that it is fine for them to serve in the temple,
then you accept what Jehovah thinks is an abomination. (2Chron.23:6; Num.3:10; Eze.44:7)

Please give Xxx all these scriptures and please tell him if that he still thinks that the Great Crowd of Rev.7:15 are not Jehovah's chosen priests and a part of the 144000 spiritual Jews, (Rev.7:4; 20:6)
then he must send me the scriptures which tell us
 that those not receiving the circumcision of the heart by spirit (Col.2:9,10,11,12; Rom.6:4,5; 2:28,29; Eph.3:6) may also render acceptable service to God in His spiritual Temple,
because that idea goes against the scriptures that I know (see some above), as well as prophecies which I was given understanding for.

If God finds it acceptable for spiritual Gentiles to serve in his temple,
then the Man of Lawlessness in 2Thess.2:4 is doing an acceptable thing, when he also trespasses into, and raises himself up "in God's temple" (Dan.8:11; 11:37).
 A spiritual Gentile is one who is uncircumcised in heart. (Eze.44:7,9)
Jesus said that in God's eyes, spiritual Gentiles in the Temple is a "disgusting thing"!
(Matt.24:15; Mark13:14; Rev.11:2; Dan.8:13; 11:31) and caused the "Temple" (1Cor.3:16; Eph.2:20,21,22) to become defiled (Dan.11:31; Jer.7:30; Dan.11:37,38; Jer.19:4; Rev.13:8).

Why then, would it seem good, for those in Rev.7:9,10 to be "saved" through the Great Tribulation and wear "white robes", if these are uncircumcised Gentiles who are breaking God's Temple Laws by replacing the priests in rendering sacred service?

Please study the previous scriptures. They will tell you and Xxx who the "Great Crowd" must be.
The scriptures can not be nullified, even if we think we understand something the Bible does not say.
The Bible must agree with itself, or else we have the wrong interpretation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
When John said "after these things" he adds "I saw and look" (Rev.7:9 A).
It was after... that he saw...
not after, that it happened in fulfillment of prophecy.
This seeing "after", has nothing to do with fulfillment, or human timing.
Thinking that this indicates the order of prophetic fulfillment, is an assumption.
It indicates rather, the beginning of the next illustration.

This is how visions teach...in layers. 
Truths are shown in vision, over and overuntil you learn the whole picture.
The scriptures about who is allowed to "render sacred  service in God's spiritual Temple" (Rev.7:15), 
must not be nullified.
If we do disregard these, we will never understand "the disgusting thing standing in a holy place".

There is a provision for life to those not circumcised in heart by spirit....
but it is not by means of them becoming the "disgusting thing".

That provision for life, is contained in the scriptures (Matt.10:40,41,42; 25:45,46).

If we understand the Great Crowd as not  anointed, 
then we believe the same lie "Jehovah's Witnesses" believe.
This lie from Satan lets those not chosen as priests, feel entitled to serve God "in His Temple priesthood", even emboldening them to call themselves, Jehovah's chosen witnesses (Isa.43:10,21; 1Pet.2:9), and be equal and even over the priests, allowing the trampling of the Holy Ones (Rev.11:2; Dan.7:25; 8:13; Luke21:24; John16:2; Rev.13:7).
This lie was needed for Satan to control the anointed and prevent their being sealed,
which is the result to those who let themselves be dominated and tormented by those who take over the Temple Priesthood from them (Isa.5:5; Dan.12:7; Lam.1:10; Rev.9:3,4,5,10). That dominating, tormenting identity is the "Man of Lawlessness"/"Wild Beast"/"Locust-Scorpions" (2Thess.2:3,4; Rev.13:7,8,15,16; 9:3,4,5,10). These are all the same entity.

I sympathize, that in seeing the Great Crowd as not chosen priests, you yourself may not wish to trample Jehovah's chosen priests.
You may feel qualified to have faith without the spirit given them, to teach you with scripture.
You may feel that the service of the priests in the Temple, is no different than the service of others.
You may feel that it is nothing for Jehovah to choose His nation to serve him,
and then for others not chosen nor cleansed, to render the same service.
But this is not at all what the Bible teaches.

It is nothing for you to speak against, reject, or blaspheme God's chosen priests;
but it is something to reject God's Word and spirit. (Matt.12:31,32; Eph.6:17)
Please, read and accept the scriptures I have given you.
Love,

6 comments:

  1. Since the beginning, all anointed ones are called "out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues"

    Romans 1: 5 through whom we received undeserved kindness and an apostleship in order that there might be obedience of faith among all the nations respecting his name, 6 among which [nations] YOU also are those called to belong to Jesus Christ—

    The great crowd is also describe in Revelation 15:2
    2 And I saw what seemed to be a glassy sea mingled with fire, and those who come off victorious from the wild beast and from its image+ and from the number+ of its name standing by* the glassy sea,+ having harps+ of God

    who come off victorious from the "tribulation":
    "and those who come off victorious from the wild beast and from its image+ and from the number+ of its name "


    The Rest of dead...good news?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Yes, thank you Paulo. And those who come off victorious "from the wild beast" (Rev.15:2), are the same ones who "reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev.20:4). This is the same "great crowd" who are heard "in heaven" Rev.19:1.
    Amen.

    ReplyDelete
  3. what a lovely article.

    i remember when i was still studying "what does the bible really teach book", i just couldn't understand Rev20:5. The brother i was studying with spent close to an hour explaining that verse.

    Pearl do you mind explaining it in full for me.

    Thank you
    Modise

    ReplyDelete
  4. Hello Modise,
    I recommend that you go to the search box at the upper right side of the main page. Perhaps you can enter Rev.20:5.
    You will find a lot of written material that way, each containing some of the meaning of this verse.
    If that is insufficient, let me know any specific questions.
    Otherwise, I will tell you that I hope to write a book on the interpretation of each and every verse in Revelation.
    I am trying to accomplish these bigger projects, as I manage my daily load of letters and questions, so it is taking time.
    Love,
    Pearl

    ReplyDelete
  5. Hello!
    I have a misunderstanding: in REV. 7:3-8 are shown the 144,000 , they are not seen in the temple, maybe because they themselves are the Temple (spiritual)
    then, the Great Crowd is seen "worship him day and night in his temple" v15
    I know that in the old the priests were (literally) serving God in Temple (that temple was of stones)
    in spirit the Temple are exactly the 144,000 ones (living stones) now the Great Crowd is serving IN "his temple"
    my misunderstanding: how can the Temple(the great crowd) serve God in his temple(of living stones, 144,000) ?
    thank you for your time and effort

    ReplyDelete
  6. I am posting your question and answer of the main page today--1/20/2012.

    ReplyDelete

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